‘GoI wants to kill more Maoist leaders
before starting dialogue with them’ 
Kashmiris deserve justice: Agnivesh
SYED BASHARAT
SRINAGAR, Sep 2: Stating that Kashmir is getting brutalized, prominent peace activist Swami Agnivesh, who was here on a three-day visit to assess the situation, says “if Kashmiris stand united, show patience and perseverance, justice is bound to come, if not sooner but later.”
In an exclusive interview to Kashmir Times, Swami Agnivesh said that he salutes senior separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani for his “evolution” from his earlier stand in which he was a staunch supporter of merger with Pakistan to a present stand where he seeks complete independence.
The prominent peace activist says that he wants to carry a message to the rest of India that Kashmiris are committed to their struggle and are ready to offer more sacrifices in order to continue their struggle for freedom. 
Swami Agnivesh observed that if freedom is denied to Kashmiris, it will be catastrophic. “And no power on earth can suppress that urge for freedom. It is the highest and God given urge. Allah gives that urge. No other power or education can give you that urge. In that sense, an urge for freedom has to be appreciated and shared just as we, India under the British, had a profound urge for the freedom. And we made all sacrifices. And even when we were told by the British no, no, no if we give you freedom you will not be able to rule your country, you will make a mess, not sustain. Gandhiji said you get out and then we will see whatever we can do with our country,” he remarked.
Swami Agnivesh who is known for brokering peace between the Government of India and the Maoists spilled beans saying that he was told by a senior functionary in the central government that elimination of some more Maoist leaders is a must before entering the dialogue with them at a stronger position.
“…I could read ‘let us eliminate few more of them (Maoists leaders) and then they will be weaker, and then may be the dialogue will start, on our conditions and terms. This is the cruel joke. It is not genuine desire for peace. So this is a devious and devilish intention,” Swami Agnivesh disclosed to Kashmir Times.
Best known for his work against bonded labour, child labour, women’s issues, the Chhattisgarh born Swami Agnivesh, is a sober, liberal and progressive intellectual who was here along with his other activists on a three-day visit to assess the present unrest in Kashmir.
He has done degrees in Law and Economics, and has worked as a lecturer of Business Management at St. Xavier's College, Kolkatta, besides serving as a Minister for Education from 1979 to 1982 in Haryana.
In an exclusive interview with Kashmir Times Special Correspondent SYED BASHARAT, he criticized both the state and the central government for relying on excessive use of force against the unarmed protesters in Kashmir. He appealed the Central government to appreciate the Kashmiris’ urge for freedom. Excerpts from the interview:-
Question: What was the purpose of your visit to Kashmir?
Answer: Being the members of civil society, with compassion in our hearts and profound urge for justice in society, this is why we have been working for the last 42 years on different issues like, women’s issues, child labour, bonded labour, and other now in Kashmir when we see the firing without any break, children being killed and there seems no let up in arrogance of the state and central government, we thought we should not fear anybody and reach out to people.
Q. Now, what is your assessment of the situation in Kashmir?
A: Our assessment is that the Kashmir is getting brutalised. The increasing reliance on forces, military and paramilitary has vitiated the whole atmosphere. And what we can see, it is so visible, every nook and corner of your city right from airport to the interiors of your city are occupied by the forces. This itself is so traumatic an experience, even a person coming from outside is not able to reconcile with the situation. If we (central government) claim that it is an integral part of the country, then why are we inflicting wounds on this integral part?
Q: What in your opinion is the reason behind the present upheaval in Kashmir?
A: See, I am going back with a feeling that successive leaders of Kashmir right from 1947 onwards have failed the people of Kashmir. So there is lack of real leadership in Kashmir. Those leaders, who can really appreciate the hopes and aspirations of the people, and be with and identify themselves with the people of Kashmir. And not look up to his power or strings being pulled up by the external forces. You get power from the people and make mortgage it before others.
Q: So how do you see the leadership of Syed Ali Shah Geelani or Mirwaiz Umar Farooq?
A: To the extent that they are not in formal seat of power, I find all of them including Yasin Malik, Shabir Shah closer to hopes and aspirations of the people. And that is why I respect them more than the so-called elected leaders, who were not being faithful to their people. These (separatists) though not elected, in the formal sense but they enjoy the faith and the confidence of the people. So that is why I see clearly that the people and youth particularly responding to these, otherwise the elected leaders are nowhere to be seen.
Q: Syed Ali Shah Geelani is ready for dialogue provided India accepts Kashmir as a dispute. Do you think the central government should show some flexibility and invite him for talks?
A:Instead of playing on words, we should look at the attitudes. If the government of India is ready for talks and is inviting you for talks that itself establishes that there is some dispute. Instead of asking them to pronounce the word ‘dispute’ and then join the talks, I would say, if they are asking for come to talks, it shows that there is something to be discussed which is hanging fire for the last 60 years. It is obvious, let us not try to put conditions. Let there be unconditional talks and not to doubt anybody’s integrity. And after meeting Geelani Saheb, day before yesterday, I would like to salute him for the evolution I saw in him. In 2008, when I spent three and half hours with him, he was outrightly saying we have a right to have a resolution based on UN resolutions. He was clearly in favour of merger with Pakistan. But this time when I met him, he told our delegation that we want independence. So no longer he is saying merger with Pakistan. It is something which needs to be appreciated by all people across the country. He is not so rigid, adamant and has shown some flexibility and evolution. Last time when I came here he invited me to stay with him for a night and I loved that. I see in him a very kind compassionate human being, human heart, and he should not be treated as a separatist hawkish leader. He has father’s heart. I think we are not able to see the humane nature in him and we do not utilise his character for nation building. Instead we are pushing him to wall. We are cornering him. I think he has great leadership potential in him. Also I would like to say that I met Mirwaiz sahib and found him more sincere in his desires. He wants amicable, peaceful settlement of the Kashmir issue. He should not be put under house arrest. He wants to meet the bereaved families. I told some leaders that he should be allowed to move freely and he will not tell people to take up guns rather tell them to be more peaceful in their protests.
Q: People here have been accusing the J&K government of using disproportionate force for the last two and half months which led to 65 killings and fomented anger. How do you view this feeling?
A: I fully agree with the people here. It was disproportionate but simply uncalled for. It was simply not needed. I think the peaceful protests should be allowed and the paramilitary forces should not be kept in their way. They should be sent back to their barracks. They (CRPF personnel) have been called here from far off places. They are upset as they are away from their families, parents, wives and the children. They undergo high stress level. So they commit mistakes. After all they too are human beings. We should also understand their problems. Somewhere provocations rebound and cause more damage. So curtail the forces. Rely on state police; don’t call for additional forces from outside.
Q: Some people have been demanding resignation of Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, do you think he should have resigned or should resign?
A: Well it is up to him. I have learned through media that there was some accusation on him of being involved in a sex scandal or whatever. And spontaneously, I saw his speech in the state legislative assembly and he got up and said he will resign and all his colleagues took hold of him saying no, no, no, you should not do that. And yet he rushed to the Governor and immediately tendered his resignation. So I was little taken in, I said my goodness, what a man of character, he is. He got so upset by sheer allegation which has not been proved and he seems to be very genuine young man. But now I suspect, I am asking myself, how come, if that was a real genuine gesture, and not a drama, not playing to some gallery, why was he not moved by blood and tears of so many people. Why did not he offer his resignation even once? At the outset, if he had done in a genuine way, things would not have escalated. So I am really feeling pity for this young man. I suspect that perhaps somebody is moving his strings saying do this drama this time and do that at some other time.
Q: There is a feeling that the central government is directly handing the situation in Kashmir at present, what is your opinion?
A: I think in a federal government, we should give an upper hand to the state government. If you claim there is an elected government in Kashmir. Let it not be seen as a puppet. You will be defeating, taking away the credibility of the present government, whatever good or bad his worth Omar Abdullah’s government should be given all sort of freedom to decide and to work out their own strategy rather than be dictated by the central government.
Q: Since during your three-day visit to Valley, you met a cross section of people including some of the bereaved families who lost their children in the present unrest, what did they tell you? What do they want?
A: We saw them grieving but more than that what we saw was they are not grieving so much for the departed children but their commitment or their urge is to fight for justice, to fight for freedom. Parents who have lost their one child have kept another ready for the sacrifice. This is a complex issue which needs to be understood. That is why we came here and met these people. In Delhi we could not have been able to feel this pain. People’s pain reflects that they are even ready for the worst. They (people) say we are being killed, still our struggle will continue. Unarmed we will fight, take bullets but you cannot silence our urge for the freedom. So as Gandhiji has said the power of non-violence. The power of non-violence is borne out of love. That means we are not out to kill anybody, to harm anybody but we just want to be ourselves. This is a big thing.
Q: What are your plans after your return to Delhi? Will you submit any recommendations to the central government?
A: We have not been given any mandate by anybody. We have not even informed them (Central government). Five of us, we just took our bags and flew to Srinagar on our own. But what we will do is we, feel it our duty (Dharma) rather, will go and inform the civil society in rest of the country. On September 3, I will be holding press conference in Delhi. All five of us will be there. We are going to share whatever we have seen here with the media. And through the media we want to reach out the civil societies of whole of the country and probably eyes and ears of the rulers there. Our main task is that day after I will be in Cochin where I am attending an international conference in religious freedom to be inaugurated by Dalai Lama, there also I will speak about the situation in Kashmir. So it becomes a mission to disseminate the agony of people and the bleeding Kashmir. And what the people want. They want freedom, freedom to raise slogans, freedom to protest and freedom to say what they want. And if that freedom is denied, I think it will be catastrophic. And no power on earth can suppress that urge for freedom. It is the highest and God given urge. Allah gives that urge. No other power or education can give you that urge. In that sense, an urge for freedom has to be appreciated and shared just as we, India under the British, had a profound urge for the freedom. And we made all sacrifices. And even when we were told by the British no, no, no if we give you freedom you will not be able to rule your country, you will make a mess, not sustain. Gandhiji said you get out and then we will see whatever we can do with our country. You should trust human beings, they have all the ingenuity, capacity to face up the challenges and we should not doubt or suspect the credentials of ordinary people, men, women and children.
Q: There is general complaint here that despite 65 killings in Valley, there is not much being heard from the Indian civil society. How do you view this feeling?
A: Somewhere, something is wrong with the channels of communication. The media is not entirely blameless. Because, right when, children were being butchered here, the media was showing us corruption in Common Wealth games or Rahul Mahajan beating his wife. So media’s priorities are so commercialised and market oriented that they don’t have that human empathy. So it is something we don’t understand at all. But we have to struggle. We will have to create our own space. And I am sure if you speak the truth from the depth of your heart, it is bound to reach out to millions, in spite of the media or their callousness. Despite the government trying not to let this word go around, we should speak the truth and say louder that see this is happening with our children. This can happen with you tomorrow and then who will stand by you? So, come together, we appreciate this urge for freedom and find out ways for fulfilling this urge. As long as we know and understand this protest is going to be non-violent, the when we should reach out to each one of those people.
Q: What measures will you take to mobilise the civil society groups in India to mount pressure for the political resolution of the Kashmir issue?  
A: Right now we don’t know but we will definitely mobilise a cross section of civil society and who will in turn be able to impact on policy makers in Delhi.
Q: What the Central government should do vis-à-vis resolution of the Kashmir issue?
A: First and foremost all governments, they get stuck up in legal and constitutional niceties. And to the extent they try to become legalistic. That is where the purpose is defeated. We need to be humane. After all God has created us as human beings. And that is the commonality, cutting across all borders, religious or political whatsoever. This needs to be asserted. The voice of humanity which was stated by the former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, to what extent it was from his heart, I don’t know. But at least I am ready to take it on its face value (Insanneyet ke daayre main). Do whatever is possible within the limits of humanity. Don’t get stuck in niceties.
Q: Right wing India political parties like BJP have been demanding harsh administrative measures against the protesters besides opposing any sort of deliberations with the separatists. What are your comments?
A: You see, it is not just they are demanding, they have used this. They have tried all methods. It is time for them to ask why these measures have not worked. What more harsh steps you can apply, when you are already killing small children and still the number of protesters is increasing. Even for Maoist problem, you are creating and making the problem bigger for yourself, more insurmountable. The more you rely on use of force, the more you create collateral damages and the more you create alienation, and the more you make the problem insurmountable. This is spiral of violence and escalation.  There is need for paradigm shift from the use of force of weapons we need to use the power of love. And not love of power (laughing). The love of power will be self defeating. It is the power of love which will find us the way.
Q: Do you see the present unrest is because of the political deadlock vis-à-vis resolution of Kashmir issue?
A: I will not say deadlock. But what I would like to see that keeping the epicentre here in Kashmir the movement should become J&K wide. And should be seen very authentic voice of all the people, men, women and children and not just few interests groups. And come out with the most authentic Kashmiriyat. I always feel that Kashmiriyat is a great gift to the world. It is a way of living, sharing and caring.  It embraces people tolerant, pluralistic, and harmonious with nature and God. It is now being crushed.  And people who want to rule or have been ruling on the basis of divide and rule. The break us in Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh and then they distribute favours and run their politics. This is a big challenge.
Q: What is the solution to come out of this crisis?
A: The whole of civil society in J&K to stand as one people. That is the real challenge. Let them speak in one voice that does not mean having only one leader only having a blind faith in one leader. But one collective voice that can be articulated in a peaceful way. I think justice is bound to come, if not sooner, later but with patience and perseverance. I would simply share my feeling with the people of J&K—please unite yourself rise above narrow considerations. Whatever divisions have been created, just rise above yourself for the sake of Kashmiriyat. Unite and take on yourself to give this gift to the humanity.
Q: Will Autonomy, Self rule or another proposal mooted by the Central government cater to the cries of Azadi in Kashmir?
A: I think a beautiful new paradigm can be and should be even for the sake of experiment. For too long we have suffered machinations of a strong sovereign nation state, taking the territory as sacrosanct, we have suffered for too long. Now we should have a shift where people, nature and the birds and bees are too important rather than territorial integrity. May be this can be starting point for a world without borders. There should be rethinking on nationality. It should not become a prison for people.
Q: What about the Central government opposing the visit of an all party parliamentary delegation to Kashmir?
A: I think they should be welcomed. They should be allowed to come. All sorts of views and cross currents should be allowed. But the all party parliamentary delegation should be told not to carry a huge security cover with them. There is no need for that as they will not face any security problem. You come, reach out to people, but at the end muster the courage to speak the truth.
Q: Some political parties like BJP have been demanding abrogation of Article 370? What do think of their demand?
A: I hope they have realised by now that it is constitutionally impossible to abrogate. That authority which was to abrogate is no more there. If you read the process how it can be abrogated, that process cannot be fulfilled now. So it is childish to make this demand. It is making fool of the people saying we are more patriotic by demanding abrogation of Article 370.
Q: The Maoists have said that the Central government tracked their leader Azad through your letters sent to him. Do you think the union home ministry believes in using more excessive force to suppress the voices of dissent rather than opting for amicable settlement of these kinds of problems?
A: The way Azad was killed in that encounter, which now turned to be a fake encounter, it is on the basis of a forensic report as analysed by the forensic experts, I am sure that the government (Central) should now realise, that the use of devious methods is going to be highly counterproductive. You know, you have not killed Azad; you have killed the peace process. Today, you are being seen as enemy of peace. You are talking peace, you are mouthing peace but your actions sound something different. This is the tragedy of our times. People are losing their faith in the powers that be what they say, they don’t mean it. This is the crisis. Crisis of confidence! They might by high and mighty there, speaking from the ramparts of Red Fort, “abjure violence, come for talks”; people are cynical what nonsense you are talking. Literal nonsense! When this process was already on, 11th of May union home minister P. Chidambaram gives me the letter sets the steps for peace process and that letter reaches them and I get a positive response on 31st of May. And then I take it to the Home Minister, he says well these things needs to be clarified. I clarify and send another letter on 26th of June to Azad. And he was carrying my letter. He was trying to respond and in the process of responding on the 1st of July early in the morning, when he was trying to reach out to his some other senior leaders, he was caught hold of, nabbed, before  midnight he was flown to the jungle of Adilabad and there he was brutally murdered. It is a cold blooded murder. And look at their fake character, the greyhound police of Andhra Pradesh lodged FIR saying they got information about 25-30 Maoists carrying A.K 47 rifles were roaming in the forests of Adilabad and then when we challenge them, they fired at us and we responded, so next day early morning at dawn time we saw two bodies and one was that of Azad.
Q: What do you think why was he killed?
A: He was known to be very, very pro peace   among the Maoists. Not every Maoist was pro peace like him or pro dialogue. So I am told, I don’t know much about the inside story about the Maoist struggle but I was told that and I was told and could read all through his interviews published in many magazines that they genuinely want peace and dialogue to start and he was responding. So somewhere I got to know, (this is I am sharing first time with you) you know while in this process from one of the very higher up in the government of India, he told me look Swami Ji may be we may have to wait for more time for the dialogue to start. And I said why he (Azad) is coming through, they have agreed and they have responded already. He said no, no, no, we should not start dialogue from the position of weakness. We should start the dialogue from the position of strength. I said well, you are the government of India—the all mighty sovereign power, I mean who else can be stronger than you, you are already strong. So, the wink of his eyes, whatever was his body language, I could read ‘let us eliminate few more of them (Maoists leaders) and then they will be weaker, and then may be the dialogue will start, on our conditions and terms. This is the cruel joke. It is not genuine desire for peace. So this is a devious and devilish intention.
Q:Do you repent or regret brokering peace between the government of India and the Maoists which led to the death of Azad?
A:No. You see, my commitment is to peace, not to any individual. I have to continue with that mission.  And peace has to prevail and let us keep on making efforts but I never mince words but all the more my commitment is now to truth. So I am speaking to media making the whole peace process more transparent. People should know who is who and what is he. Now I do not fear anybody, I speak truth about everything. I was advised to keep peace process with Maoists backdoor channel of diplomacy but I know it may have something very good about this process, but it is fraught with the risk of being hijacked for some ulterior purpose. It is pure and it helps people to participate, making it a participatory process.